I think your reasoning is sorta, well, nihilistic. I think that deconstructing religion will help us deconstruct dualist political and social rhetoric - which religion has done much to create.
Religion is amongst the foremost creators of the idea that there is one special, blessed group of people existing in opposition to everyone else who does not belong to that group. Even in political reasoning, the kind of nationalism that states that people in one country are inherently better than another is (deservedly and hopefully permanently) out of fashion. Religion is the only large social movement nowadays where it is globally acceptable to say things like, "Oh, everyone who isn't part of my social group is damned to hell/locked on the wheel of time/suffering for eternity".
So, by deconstructing religion, we are deconstructing one of the chief causes of the us vs. them, we're special vs. they're damned idiots kind of thinking.
Perhaps we have different definitions of nihilistic? In terms of the existence of good and evil, I see the existence of both of these forces in the world. While evil always looks like it is going to prevail, I acknowledge that with love, all things are possible. Furthermore, in terms of humanism without reference to religion, the "golden rule" sufficiently sets out the guideline for all human beings who seek to be instruments of good. Perhaps, it is my fault that I did not make my positions more clear and that you were misled by my poor diction into believing that my expressions were nihilistic.
In terms of your observations regarding religion, I think we must simply agree to disagree. I do not write this to avoid a debate nor do I wish to start a debate; I write this with the full understanding that both of our positions have been well thought out by each of us, that we have already expressed our positions and that there appears to be little or no common ground for meaningful dialog. I will accept your position regarding religion as your own and I ask that you accept that I cannot be moved to accept your position in light of my beliefs.
As for your premise that "in political reasoning, the kind of nationalism that states that people in one country are inherently better than another is (deservedly and hopefully permanently) out of fashion..." I would opine that your position is not accurate or at least naive. I think nationalism, national elitism and national pride still exists... but as previously indicated, I think we should probably agree to disagree on this point as well.
As for your premise: "Religion is the only large social movement nowadays where it is globally acceptable to say things like, 'Oh, everyone who isn't part of my social group is damned to hell/locked on the wheel of time/suffering for eternity...'" You are in error in terms of the Roman Catholic Church in which I practice.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church acknowledges that individuals who lead lives of charity and love will find themselves in heaven upon their death... despite their religious affiliation, e.g. Christian, Jew, Muslim or Hindu... or whether they are atheist or agnostic... the final judge will be the source of of pure and divine love... God. Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that God is there to find fault with each of us and cast us into a the flames of Hell, I would offer this quote from Augustin, God's sense of justice is exceeded by his sense of mercy. In terms of my own life and shortcomings, I am relying that God has a sense of humor and the overwhelming desire to forgive me.
Yes, my adult "students" who are currently studying to become members of the Catholic Church had difficulty with this concept "inclusiveness." As you indicated, they are products of a life where "exclusion" in organized religion was the norm. Yes, religion is thick with people who want to make judgments... who want to articulate that there will be those who are saved and those who are dammed... and yet, that exclusivism is contrary to the concept of God's love and forgiveness... no that doesn't sound very Christian to me either.
Yes, it is terrible when "a man of God" stands there and talks about how "we" are saved and "they" are dammed. The God I believe in would find a way to bring his children to him in the next life. The God I believe in works through imperfect human beings to bring the real message of love to the least of our brothers and sisters... and yes, when I find men and women who are the very instruments of God's love, I feel like there is hope... and yes, when certain certain "men of God" refuse to focus on God's love, I cringe... especially when it is Catholic Priest or Bishop.
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sforzinda
Re: Just a random comment from someone with a different orientation...
Date: 2007-12-05 09:36 pm (UTC)Religion is amongst the foremost creators of the idea that there is one special, blessed group of people existing in opposition to everyone else who does not belong to that group. Even in political reasoning, the kind of nationalism that states that people in one country are inherently better than another is (deservedly and hopefully permanently) out of fashion. Religion is the only large social movement nowadays where it is globally acceptable to say things like, "Oh, everyone who isn't part of my social group is damned to hell/locked on the wheel of time/suffering for eternity".
So, by deconstructing religion, we are deconstructing one of the chief causes of the us vs. them, we're special vs. they're damned idiots kind of thinking.
Re: Just a random comment from someone with a different orientation...
Date: 2007-12-06 12:57 am (UTC)In terms of your observations regarding religion, I think we must simply agree to disagree. I do not write this to avoid a debate nor do I wish to start a debate; I write this with the full understanding that both of our positions have been well thought out by each of us, that we have already expressed our positions and that there appears to be little or no common ground for meaningful dialog. I will accept your position regarding religion as your own and I ask that you accept that I cannot be moved to accept your position in light of my beliefs.
As for your premise that "in political reasoning, the kind of nationalism that states that people in one country are inherently better than another is (deservedly and hopefully permanently) out of fashion..." I would opine that your position is not accurate or at least naive. I think nationalism, national elitism and national pride still exists... but as previously indicated, I think we should probably agree to disagree on this point as well.
As for your premise: "Religion is the only large social movement nowadays where it is globally acceptable to say things like, 'Oh, everyone who isn't part of my social group is damned to hell/locked on the wheel of time/suffering for eternity...'" You are in error in terms of the Roman Catholic Church in which I practice.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church acknowledges that individuals who lead lives of charity and love will find themselves in heaven upon their death... despite their religious affiliation, e.g. Christian, Jew, Muslim or Hindu... or whether they are atheist or agnostic... the final judge will be the source of of pure and divine love... God. Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that God is there to find fault with each of us and cast us into a the flames of Hell, I would offer this quote from Augustin, God's sense of justice is exceeded by his sense of mercy. In terms of my own life and shortcomings, I am relying that God has a sense of humor and the overwhelming desire to forgive me.
Yes, my adult "students" who are currently studying to become members of the Catholic Church had difficulty with this concept "inclusiveness." As you indicated, they are products of a life where "exclusion" in organized religion was the norm. Yes, religion is thick with people who want to make judgments... who want to articulate that there will be those who are saved and those who are dammed... and yet, that exclusivism is contrary to the concept of God's love and forgiveness... no that doesn't sound very Christian to me either.
Yes, it is terrible when "a man of God" stands there and talks about how "we" are saved and "they" are dammed. The God I believe in would find a way to bring his children to him in the next life. The God I believe in works through imperfect human beings to bring the real message of love to the least of our brothers and sisters... and yes, when I find men and women who are the very instruments of God's love, I feel like there is hope... and yes, when certain certain "men of God" refuse to focus on God's love, I cringe... especially when it is Catholic Priest or Bishop.